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More "input lag", picture quality takes a hit, they're more expensive, and the circuit boards are more prone to failure and more expensive to repair/replace when they do.

 

Sources are Amazon, Google, and common sense.

 

More "input lag" - this may be true but I haven't seen anywhere that flat out says this.

 

Picture quality only goes down when you have 3D enabled. Without it, it displays the same as any 2D tv. That is an argument for 2D vs 3D, not the actual tv.

 

And the money issues are the cost of new technology.. buy a warranty.

 

 

Btw, in terms of input sources, different resolution doesn't mean anything. The vast majority of TVs use the same input board and picture processing for HDMI and component input. Even if the Wii only runs at 480i, if the TV truely is the problem it'll also have the "input lag" because it's signal will be going through the same board, same chips, same post-processing as the PS3 on HDMI.

 

That's not true. If the tv's native resolution is different than the source, extra picture processing is required to re-size the image. Google running a nes on 1080p tv.

 

Part I

 

Why do HDTVs lag on video games?

HDTVs typically only have one or two "native" resolutions. A set's native resolution is the resolution that it displays on the screen. This means that sometimes, the HDTV must "scale" the resolution you input in order to display it.

 

On regular, non-HD televisions, there is only one native resolution, which is 480i (240p). Whenever you play a video game on a standard definition TV, the game console always outputs 480i/240p and the TV displays it as 480i/240p. No need for any scaling, so response time is always normal and accurate.

 

However, because HDTVs NEVER have 480i/240p (Standard Definition) and usually not even 480p (Enhanced Definition) as a native resolution, that means that any video game console we have that can't output a High Definition signal is likely to lag on any HDTV display. It isn't that it is impossible to scale an image with no lag; HDTVs simply put the emphasis on image quality, which takes some time to process, rather than speed. Some newer HDTVs now come equipped with a "Game Mode" to speed up the scaling process and reduce or eliminate lag on the set. You can read more about "Game Mode" later into the FAQ.

Source: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=558125 Edited by Lemm
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This is what I want to get instead:

 

http://flatpanelshd.com/review.php?subaction=showfull&id=1300800238

 

Quote from same article:

Input lag is lower than on the 2010 models, and was measured to 18-25 ms. The level of input lag depends on the circuits enabled and IFC adds to input lag. Input lag on Panasonic GT30 is also lower than on most LCD/LED models. This also means that GT30 is great for console gaming.

 

Another test of input lag on same set showing ~24ms:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1166196 (First TV shown)

 

It's about $300 more than the tv I currently have / am returning, but it's also slightly better viewing. Seems to be worth it to me since with 2 tv's I don't have to fight my gf (as much) for gaming time.

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Btw, in terms of input sources, different resolution doesn't mean anything. The vast majority of TVs use the same input board and picture processing for HDMI and component input. Even if the Wii only runs at 480i, if the TV truely is the problem it'll also have the "input lag" because it's signal will be going through the same board, same chips, same post-processing as the PS3 on HDMI.

That's not true. If the tv's native resolution is different than the source, extra picture processing is required to re-size the image. Google running a nes on 1080p tv.

 

NES doesn't use component input. It would use either coax or RCA, both of which have resolution upscaling enabled by default on the TV. Since no modern gaming devices use it, the upscaling hardware isn't going to be fast because it doesn't need to be. On the NES, even on older 1980s-era TVs there was a delay between when you pushed the button and when mario jumped. This has nothing to do with the TV and everything to do with playing a console running on a 2 MHz processor.

 

Take your TV apart and look for yourself. I've yet to see a TV where conponent and HDMI weren't treated the same. HDMI has to go through a couple filters to seperate everything out but in terms of the actual picture itself, it's identical.

 

As to resizing, look in the Nvidia control panel and you'll see options relating to HDMI-TV picture scaling. EVERY device scales a 1080p output differently and not every TV displays the same 1080p signal in an identical manner. TVs automatically scale and adjust every input, even 1080p, to match what its chipset thinks 1080p should be. Perfect example, I've yet to get my ION's rendition of 1080p to perfectly match an HDTV's 1080p resolution, I ALWAYS have to manually adjust it on the PC side and end up with a weird resolution. The TV takes this weird resolution and displays it regardless. Can I tell a difference in 1080p movies? Nope. Any "input lag" in MW2 or L4D2? Nope.

 

I mean really, if scaling created lag problems don't you think it would be a problem with PC monitors too? I've never heard of scaling lag on computer monitors. Change your PC resolution to something really weird and you'll notice that the monitor scales it to full screen and keeps on trucking.

 

 

Part I

 

Why do HDTVs lag on video games?

HDTVs typically only have one or two "native" resolutions. A set's native resolution is the resolution that it displays on the screen. This means that sometimes, the HDTV must "scale" the resolution you input in order to display it.

 

On regular, non-HD televisions, there is only one native resolution, which is 480i (240p). Whenever you play a video game on a standard definition TV, the game console always outputs 480i/240p and the TV displays it as 480i/240p. No need for any scaling, so response time is always normal and accurate.

 

However, because HDTVs NEVER have 480i/240p (Standard Definition) and usually not even 480p (Enhanced Definition) as a native resolution, that means that any video game console we have that can't output a High Definition signal is likely to lag on any HDTV display. It isn't that it is impossible to scale an image with no lag; HDTVs simply put the emphasis on image quality, which takes some time to process, rather than speed. Some newer HDTVs now come equipped with a "Game Mode" to speed up the scaling process and reduce or eliminate lag on the set. You can read more about "Game Mode" later into the FAQ.

I'll see your AVS Forum writeup and raise you your TV's own instruction manual. Flip to the PC input section and you'll find a table of natively supported resolutions. It'll be more than one or two and 640x480 is most definately one of them. LED LCDs almost universally support 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i, and 1080p, both with and without scaling.

 

Just try an XBOX360 or Wii on it, I think you'll notice a difference. Enable game mode if you think it'll help but disable all the other extras like MPEG balancing and noise filtering.

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Btw, in terms of input sources, different resolution doesn't mean anything. The vast majority of TVs use the same input board and picture processing for HDMI and component input. Even if the Wii only runs at 480i, if the TV truely is the problem it'll also have the "input lag" because it's signal will be going through the same board, same chips, same post-processing as the PS3 on HDMI.

That's not true. If the tv's native resolution is different than the source, extra picture processing is required to re-size the image. Google running a nes on 1080p tv.

 

NES doesn't use component input. It would use either coax or RCA, both of which have resolution upscaling enabled by default on the TV. Since no modern gaming devices use it, the upscaling hardware isn't going to be fast because it doesn't need to be. On the NES, even on older 1980s-era TVs there was a delay between when you pushed the button and when mario jumped. This has nothing to do with the TV and everything to do with playing a console running on a 2 MHz processor.

 

Take your TV apart and look for yourself. I've yet to see a TV where conponent and HDMI weren't treated the same. HDMI has to go through a couple filters to seperate everything out but in terms of the actual picture itself, it's identical.

 

As to resizing, look in the Nvidia control panel and you'll see options relating to HDMI-TV picture scaling. EVERY device scales a 1080p output differently and not every TV displays the same 1080p signal in an identical manner. TVs automatically scale and adjust every input, even 1080p, to match what its chipset thinks 1080p should be. Perfect example, I've yet to get my ION's rendition of 1080p to perfectly match an HDTV's 1080p resolution, I ALWAYS have to manually adjust it on the PC side and end up with a weird resolution. The TV takes this weird resolution and displays it regardless. Can I tell a difference in 1080p movies? Nope. Any "input lag" in MW2 or L4D2? Nope.

 

I mean really, if scaling created lag problems don't you think it would be a problem with PC monitors too? I've never heard of scaling lag on computer monitors. Change your PC resolution to something really weird and you'll notice that the monitor scales it to full screen and keeps on trucking.

 

 

Part I

 

Why do HDTVs lag on video games?

HDTVs typically only have one or two "native" resolutions. A set's native resolution is the resolution that it displays on the screen. This means that sometimes, the HDTV must "scale" the resolution you input in order to display it.

 

On regular, non-HD televisions, there is only one native resolution, which is 480i (240p). Whenever you play a video game on a standard definition TV, the game console always outputs 480i/240p and the TV displays it as 480i/240p. No need for any scaling, so response time is always normal and accurate.

 

However, because HDTVs NEVER have 480i/240p (Standard Definition) and usually not even 480p (Enhanced Definition) as a native resolution, that means that any video game console we have that can't output a High Definition signal is likely to lag on any HDTV display. It isn't that it is impossible to scale an image with no lag; HDTVs simply put the emphasis on image quality, which takes some time to process, rather than speed. Some newer HDTVs now come equipped with a "Game Mode" to speed up the scaling process and reduce or eliminate lag on the set. You can read more about "Game Mode" later into the FAQ.

I'll see your AVS Forum writeup and raise you your TV's own instruction manual. Flip to the PC input section and you'll find a table of natively supported resolutions. It'll be more than one or two and 640x480 is most definately one of them. LED LCDs almost universally support 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i, and 1080p, both with and without scaling.

 

Just try an XBOX360 or Wii on it, I think you'll notice a difference. Enable game mode if you think it'll help but disable all the other extras like MPEG balancing and noise filtering.

 

 

You're speaking of "Supported Resolution" not "Native Resolution".

 

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Display_resolution

Some commentators also use this term to indicate a range of input formats that the display's input electronics will accept and often include formats greater than the screen's native grid size even though they have to be down-scaled to match the screen's parameters (e.g., accepting a 1920×1080 input on a display with a native 1366×768 pixel array). In the case of television inputs, many manufacturers will take the input and zoom it out to "overscan" the display by as much as 5% so input resolution is not necessarily display resolution.

 

And yes, up-scaling has to be done for 720p / 480p sources even though they are "supported" because of this "Grid". Obviously some tv's handle it better than others. If they were passed straight through they would take up a smaller portion of the screen not being stretched.

 

 

I will try out the Wii for you, but even if you are right and the Wii shows no lag -the TV is no good to me if it plays the Wii correctly and not the PS3.

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You're speaking of "Supported Resolution" not "Native Resolution".

Supported and native are really a same difference. If stretching the input takes .25-.33 of a second, you've bought a *edited* poor TV. Supported means "I can take this and display it in such a manner that the user can't tell a difference." For example, you never see input lag issues with PC monitors even when people aren't using the "native" resolution. Problems only occur when the scaling is done with either too many upscale processes enabled or when an upscale process is attempted with slow chips. All "game mode" does is disable a large number of the pre-processing operations.

 

I will try out the Wii for you, but even if you are right and the Wii shows no lag -the TV is no good to me if it plays the Wii correctly and not the PS3.

True but what happens if your next TV is the same way?

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I just checked the wii.. with New Super Mario Bros. Wii. I am noticing the lag but it's a lot harder to notice. NSMB does require less reaction time than black ops, but you can really notice it when you're trying to time jumps. I believe it's about the same. I don't really know a better game to test with other than guitar hero- but even that game requires calibration on almost all hdtv's to work properly.

 

I've read different threads that say that Panny's GT30 models are great for gaming (which is the one i'm looking at). Unfortunately I can't find anything specifically for the PZ750 but rather the 550 and 950. From what I've read the 550 is crap on input lag but the 950 is good.. I'm guessing the 750 took the low road being the in-between model.

 

The point is Input Lag exists and it varies by model and by manufacturer. So don't get in a bind like Lemm did- research the tv you are looking to buy with different forums / interwebz to see what the Input Lag is / how good it is for gaming. A lot of people recommend taking your gaming console / setup to the store when you are going to buy it.. Seems like a bit of a hassle to me.

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Oh snap, I didn't realize LG also had multiple models within the same series. Samsung does that and the low and midrange almost always have lesser quality hardware. I haven't heard of them creating lag like this but if you have a choice, *ALWAYS* buy the high-end.

 

In this case I guess you fit into the "trying to do alot of processing with slower hardware" category. It's a shame manufacturers do that but it's not likely to change anytime soon. Unfortunately...

 

I'd never thought to take a console into the store but if this becomes much more widespread I can definately see it becoming a popular thing to do.

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That being said the tv I was looking at is also the midrange..

 

Amazon prices

50ST30 Low $1085

50GT30 Med $1394

55VT30 High $2700 (they don't sell the 50" but it exists)

 

It has a lot of good reviews from avsforum and other sites... and confirmation of good gaming..

 

Maybe I don't know what to do.

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I certainly wouldn't spend $2700 on a 55" TV, that's for sure.

 

Are you dead set on not getting an LED LCD?

 

No, now I just want a good tv... It doesn't have to be 3d but it has to have a low input lag.

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actually I remember when I was looking for a new monitor that the samsung T260hd does seem to have some pretty severe input lag, not unlike what Lemm is talking about. Not sure what causes it but it is a real thing, just never experienced it firsthand I guess.

 

I should point out that on a game like blackops the issue would compound because you would be battling both the input lag and the internet lag, which is probably why you even noticed this. If you were to play say the campaign it would likely be much less noticeable.

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actually I remember when I was looking for a new monitor that the samsung T260hd does seem to have some pretty severe input lag, not unlike what Lemm is talking about. Not sure what causes it but it is a real thing, just never experienced it firsthand I guess.

 

I should point out that on a game like blackops the issue would compound because you would be battling both the input lag and the internet lag, which is probably why you even noticed this. If you were to play say the campaign it would likely be much less noticeable.

 

I agree.. it all adds up just some more than others.

 

Internet lag appears differently though because with internet lag I can see myself shooting / knifing the other person, but instead I died because the other persons shot registered with the host before mine did. This makes me so mad.. It really keeps me from using a mic a lot because I start ranting. I have to turn the thing off.

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  • 2 months later...

Alright... so I bought a new tv from Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004MME76A

 

Panasonic 55" GT30 3D Plasma

 

I ran break-in slides for the first 100 hours (just for picture) and I finally got to actually watch the tv Saturday night. I setup the custom mode setting for the tv turning off all of the image enhancing effects that I could and the input lag for the tv + my receiver is less than 25ms!

 

I was actually able to measure it this time since I found a display port to hdmi connector for my laptop and followed the procedure here to test: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1166196

 

Game mode seems to actually produce more lag than custom. I'm thinking about connecting the PS3 directly to the tv (sans-receiver) but I really think that the receiver could be only adding on 5ms of lag at the most. Plus it would be a huge inconvenience to have to switch the input on the tv and the receiver every time I wanted to play a game. (Still might do it)

 

Either way.. I'm able to play videogames on a big tv now.. yay me. I'm still getting used to the size of the tv. I think that has affected my playing a decent amount too.

Edited by Lemm
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